Bob DeWaay on Mike Bickle, IHOP & The Bridal Paradigm
For those of you aware of Bob DeWaay’s excellent discernment ministry, Critical Issues Commentary, you may be interested in his most recent article: Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer: The Latter Rain Redividus.
He [Bickle] is helping his listeners feel guilty about lacking something that they will have to set out to gain through their own effort based on his revelation.
P. 4
DeWaay does an excellent job of demonstrating that, regardless of intent, Bickle has set up with IHOP and the Bridal Paradigm an elitist two-tiered Christianity. There are those in the vanguard who “get it” (“it” being the Bridal Paradigm and its attendant mystical experiences – all of it founded on extra-biblical revelation) and those who don’t.
DeWaay also rightly points out some of Bickle’s embarrassing misuse of Scripture. Particularly mind-blowing is the damage done to Christ’s parable of the virgins in Matthew 25 in propping up the Bridal Paradigm.
Check it out, yo.
Jim:
I saw this on CIC and then heard about it a bit more on Way of the Master Radio.
I like what Todd had to say about the understading of the “Bride of Christ”…
“If your church has to tell its congregation that they should never think of kissing Jesus on the mouth…Then there might be a problem with their theology.”
Jason
thepredestinedblog.blogspot.com/
check this blog out and the post he made about IHOP. Pretty good and even a fellow blogger responded….
just a thought,
but could it be that those who are circumspect about “mystical experiences”, which are clearly supported by scripture, are people that just have never had one for themselves?
for instance, they are skeptical because their minds have not been renewed to such a way as to allow them to truly grow in the spirit, and embrace the “mystical experiences” that truly are a wonderful part of the Christian life?
there is a fine line between skepticism and discernment.
v
Vaden,
Thanks for commenting!
Where are mystical experiences “clearly supported by scripture”?
Unfortunately, I think your comment illustrates the two-tier system DeWaay is addressing. If I don’t have these experiences, according to you I “have not been renewed” sufficiently to “truly grow in the spirit”.
Did you read the article, Vaden? You seem to be keying in on one brief comment in my post, but mystical experience is not the point of DeWaay’s article. What do you make of Bickle’s mishandling of Scripture?
God Bless
…but could it be that those who are circumspect about “mystical experiences”, which are clearly supported by scripture, are people that just have never had one for themselves?
Yeah, show me where in scripture mystical experiences are supported…. I assume you are trying to compare the miracles of Jesus and the apostles and those miracles in the O.T. to mysticism.
Mystical experiences in the Bible? Try searching for “the word of the Lord came to be saying…” or try searching for encounters with angels or dreams or visions. A large portion of the Bible are “journals” of mystical experiences. Most of the prophetic books would certainly be that, the entire last half of Daniel and even lots of the stuff in the first six chapters of Daniel. What about the book of Revelation? Even the receiving of the Law by Moses was a mystical experience. Peter being led out of prison by an angel that he thought was a vision. It seems to me that Scripture is laced throughout with mystical experiences.
As to a two-tier system (which are DeWaay’s words, not Mike Bickle’s), after preaching in churches for 30 years it seems obvious to me that there are many people sitting in churches every Sunday that don’t get it and there are people in those same churches who are sold out to the Lord. That doesn’t seem like any great revelation to me.
Anytime you spiritualize the Scripture you run the risk of mishandling it. I would agree that Mike Bickle, at times, does mishandle Scripture. However, that doesn’t mean that EVERYTHING he teaches is wrong or that calling people to a lifestyle of fasting and prayer is wrong either.
In his critique, DeWaay runs the risk of excusing some people’s half-hearted Christianity because he can point out the Scriptural errors of Mike Bickle.
Dan,
First, thanks for commenting!
Second, I think you’re missing the point. When I referred to “mystical experiences” I explicitly linked it to the Bridal Paradigm. I recognize the Bible is full of spiritual/mystical/divine experiences. And I don’t discount all such experiences for Christians today. HOWEVER, most of the folks I know involved in IHOP and similar ministries will defend them largely based on their own personal mystical experiences and revelations. For example, many at IHOP will tell you they KNOW we are in the last days, because God personally told them so.
Places like IHOP cannot exist apart from such personal revelations and mystical experiences. The Bridal Paradigm cannot exist apart from them. Therefore, if you are on the outside looking in and have not had similar validating experiences, then you’re out of luck. It’s a little (emphasis on LITTLE) bit like the Mormon asking you to consider their truth-claims about divine things based on a burning in your bosom.
Dan, you and I know IHOP is not JUST about continual prayer and fasting. No one is opposed to prayer or fasting.
Do you believe scriptural misinterpretation is a small thing? I’m not talking about misinterpreting a particular text or coming to the occasional wrong conclusion here or there. All preachers and teachers err. I’m talking about (as is DeWaay) a pattern of bad teaching arising from a hermeneutic that eschews a literal/grammatical approach to the text for an interpretation that hinges entirely on the extra-biblical machinations of one man’s mind.
DeWaay makes the point in an audio segment on IHOP that men like Bickle essentially set themselves up as little Popes. While I’m sure everyone at IHOP is allowed to have their own revelations, at the end of the day it is Bickle’s revelations and his interpretations of scripture in lieu of these revelations that hold sway. This is extraordinarily dangerous, particular in a ministry geared toward the young.
And I reject the notion that a critique of any gnostic two-tier system somehow excuses “half-hearted Christianity”. You should spend a little more time reading through DeWaay’s material.
God Bless
Interesting learning. I read the Bridal Paradigm and although I haven’t reflected on it considerably, I am at a loss to see where anything sexual or perverse is mentioned. Those things seem to be coming from unstable people. I do believe that having a “little Pope” is bad. As scripture teaches, several within the Body must receive the same revelation before it can even be considered to be valid and credibly from God. I do see how something or a topic is focused on and positive things are left out. I’m tired. There is so much competition in the Body of Christ. The Apostles argued but it was usually over things like where to go next or life under the New Covenant: to eat pork or not, to eat things sacrificed to idols, etc.,
I don’t understand why the Apostle Paul was a “little Pope” except that he had to help finish out God’s written word to man. Still there was a unity among them. I’m wondering if when we disagree with someone’s teaching whether it be a small one or serious heresy, how many of us go to the person and truly take the time to delve into it instead of writing articles about the person for public display. I think everyone’s getting tired and after two thousand years, they’re looking for something to tickle their fancy because they are bored and well let’s admit things aren’t extremely exciting for some of us. Sometimes we would rather have a dubious experience rather than nothing at all. I just want to be intimate with God intellectually, emotionally, psychologically, definitely spiritually, but physically (sexually) yuck. That’s sick man and if there is anyone out there who wants that from God they need to get counseling because my guess is they feel love that way maybe as sexual abuse or just too much sex in their lives and they transfer a human relationship to God. I’ve seen things in the spirit realm at random or when not necessarily expecting it. I don’t seek experiences like that, but I’ve had some fairly heavy duty things go on which I believe was warfare of some type as I perceived them as attacks of the enemy and only once did I see Christ on His throne, but as I did I felt as though I were going to die as I was so weak there was no strength in me. I’m still trying to figure that one out, but it was at that exact moment I understood relationship and grace rather than works. I can’t really explain it. Anyway..Paul and the others seemed to understand things that others didn’t but they didn’t treat them any differently. I think sometimes we can be at a different place, but we have to realize it doesn’t make us any more special to God or loved by Him. He simply chose to show us something or give us some insight maybe for teaching or whatever and we let it go to our head or we get off on some tangent. There are things Paul wrote about as though everyone reading should understand, but I still don’t know what he was talking about concerning some things he alluded to. Rather than experiences, we should simply ask to understand what’s already written that we may know Him more. Thank you for listening. michaiah
If you were honestly and humbly seeking truth through the teaching you would not have come to your conclusions. Your reading too much into it.
There is no two tiered system. There is not a shred of accuracy in your conclusions. sorry
XPharisee,
Hm… I’m not sure what to tell you since you haven’t interacted with anything I, DeWaay or any of the above commenters have said. If you’d like to specifically state an argument or counter-argument regarding anything on this blog, I’d be more than happy to interact with it.
God Bless
Taken from your article
P. 4
DeWaay does an excellent job of demonstrating that, regardless of intent, Bickle has set up with IHOP and the Bridal Paradigm an elitist two-tiered Christianity. There are those in the vanguard who “get it” (”it” being the Bridal Paradigm and its attendant mystical experiences – all of it founded on extra-biblical revelation) and those who don’t.
The two tiered system doesnt exist, you did not demonstrate how Bickle describes a two tiered system. You gave no proof, just bashed the guy.
also how could you say that the bridegroom paridigm is xtra Biblical? I am sure it did now show up in your theological studies, and I am sure the evangelical superpastor that you look up to never uses it but seriously are you denying the existence of the church being the bride of christ? if there is a bride there must be a bridegroom.
xPharissee,
First, this post was merely a pointer toward or recommendation of the article on IHOP/Bickle by DeWaay. This was not intended to be an exhaustive critique by me of the Bridal Paradigm. If you’re interested in my personal thoughts on IHOP and the Bridal Paradigm, click on “IHOP” or “Bridal Paradigm” in the category cloud above on the right side of the blog.
And again, you haven’t interacted with DeWaay’s argument that IHOP and the Bridal Paradigm (BP) sets up a two-tier Christianity. You’ve simply proclaimed that it doesn’t. I’m not sure what to interact with, but I’ll give it a shot.
I know of no critics of Bickle’s BP that remove from their Bibles the passages referring to Christ as bridegroom and the Church as His bride. That’s not the point. The BP is a unique and hyper-allegorical interpretation of the Song of Songs employed as a “key” to understanding the rest of Scripture. Scripture itself gives no warrant for reading it this way. (And I’m not here critiquing a general allegorical reading of this book – while I believe even a general allegorical reading is wrong, many Christians in the past have read it this way – I’m critiquing the over-emphasis of Bickle’s BP and its employment as a “key” to unlocking an extraordinary Christian peity and power.) If the Song of Songs and Bickle’s unique and ahistoric reading of it are so important to the supposed End Times Church, why does the Bible nowhere point to this? Christ and the New Testament writers at several points give us new interpretations for Old Testament passages. Yet, nowhere is Song of Songs referenced in the New Testament. If you are going to accept Bickle’s BP, you must ask yourself why this is.
Which brings us to the BP’s two-tiered Christianity. If this interpretation of Song of Songs is not found in Scripture, then we are dependent on those Super Apostles who have heard directly from God to tell us about it. Bickle himself has said the BP is a fruit of God’s direct communication to him – both through his own personal experiences and through “Prophets” like Bob Jones and Paul Cain (both discredited relatively recently by sexual scandals).
If the BP is vitally important, and it is not found directly in Scripture, then how does one appropriate it? IHOP! You have to go to OneThing or some other similar conference and be told this by the Super Apostles and Prophets. This sets up, intentionally or not, a de facto two-tier Christianity: those who’ve been enlightened by the Super Apostles and Prophets, and those who have not. What BP afficionados often fail to grasp is that 99-100% of good, Biblical churches have ZERO knowledge of any of this information, because they swim outside the “River” of these charismatic/apostolic groups. So, they’re just out of luck.
And this is not unique to IHOP. Rick Joyner’s “Final Quest” is a glaring example of a more intentional dividing of God’s people: Blues and Grays. There are those climbing the mountain of charismatic experience, and there are those being vomited and defecated on by demons.
Being in (I assume) this stream of Christianity, xPharissee, you may not realize how other Christians often view this movement. There is an expression of this 24/7, charismatic, five-fold, apostolic… movement in my area. The “pastor” of this “church” attended Joyner’s “school”. The few folks I’ve talked to about this group have, unsolicited from me, all used one word to describe the folks there: ELITIST. This is not, I believe, because they are inherently more predisposed to arrogance and elitism than anyone else, but because this whole movement is predicated on elitism. There are those swimming in the “River” and there’s everybody else.
That was a long, rambling and probably incoherent comment. I hope it helps you understand where folks like me are coming from. I hope, xPharissee, you can accept that most (though I would concede, not all) critics of these movements are not unloving “Pharisees”, but care about the Church and their brothers and sisters in Christ. I truly believe these groups are dangerous and do much harm to the Body of Christ.
God Bless
Thanks,
To make quick work of this you need to know my background, and where I embibe. I do go to a church that pretty much embraces everything from IHOP, I actually am burned out on the over emphasis of Eschatology, it is terribly imbalanced in my local church application.
I am a graduate from an evangelical type bible college whos professors are mostly from Dallas, or Talbot or Fuller Seminaries, also Western.
However I have been ministered to by the Prophetic movement.
SO I personally get flack from all sides, but am teachable from any. I use the name xpharisee because I feel that the evangelical mindset with its readiness to criticize the miraculous sits in the seat of the modern day pharissee.
I read your article, and I have to correct you on your lumping bickle and the prophets together. In fact I did not go to any KC conferneces (one thing etc) because they do not have any of the super star prophetic people. I have read bickles book growing in the prophetic, and bickle sequestered Jones. You are wrong for criticizing his affiliations with these people because he is not! You dont see him at their conferences, and they are not at his. (at least in the last couple of years) Bickle likes to keep his conferences focused on his paridigms, or agendas. The others you spoke of dont agree, or disagree strongly with him,just not called to it.
Bickle was an evangelical, and sounds like an evangelical with his expository style. I actually agree with your assessment of his eschatology, but it is not as bad in application as you think. The real problem is the imbalance.
My biggest problem with the movement is that they really believe the second comeing is going to happen in our lifetime. Although I do keep looking up one cant tell when these events are going to unfold, it could be another 1000 or more years.
To sum up I dont think you understand ihops emphasis, and connections. It is a critics paradise though, and some healthy interaction is good. We can all learn from it even if we disagree, but lets not shoot ourselves in the foot without knowing the whole story, and culture.
xPharissee,
Regarding lumping Bickle with “other Prophets” – I would concede (and have conceded elsewhere on this blog) that Bickle is more reasonable and less whacky than folks like Todd Bentley and Bob Jones. However, I can’t see how one could unlump him from Prophets like Jones and Paul Cain. I’ve listened to the entire “Prophetic History of IHOP” series and am fully aware of Jones’ integral and vital part in this ministry. Without Jones, there is no IHOP. And even regarding the real nutcases like Bentley, I recently read preaching notes from Bickle where he endorses Lakeland, Toronto, the William Branham revival, etc. as legitimate moves of God.
So, while I would distinguish Bickle from some of these to a degree, I don’t think you can completely separate him – because he has not separated himself. And on a more anecdotal level, EVERYONE I know into the nutcases like Bentley are also VERY much into IHOP. The connection is made by folks like me, because it is there. In fact, I first heard of Bentley from a chap several years ago who saw him and Jill Austin at IHOP!
If you have the time, I would like to know specifically where you think I’ve mis-assessed IHOP’s emphases and connections. I have tried to always use direct quotes from IHOP’s material when I’ve critiqued it. I’d be curious to know exactly how I’ve erred. (I’m open to such correction – I don’t assume I’ve critiqued IHOP inerrantly.)
God Bless
hi,
Dont have time to check what your asking so I will give the benefit of the doubt. As far as bickle endorseing I agree, as I also endorse those as legitimate moves of God. You have not shared your personal background or bias, but is is obvious that you are taken back by his affilliations, fair enough.
I dont want to get onto a further bunny trail but… it seems like the 2 tier issue is really that of believers that have been baptized in the Holy Ghost as described in acts as a second blessing. Yes I know whole nuther blog. But I think that could be where you get that. Another possibilty that I think you could agree with regardless of your bias is that there are some believers that have bought the whole package, and are trying to live according to the word, and others that dont.
If you went to an Ihop meeting expecting to get Bob Jones level prophecy you would be dissapointed. (in your case that would be a good thing) I personally am seeking the Lakeland, Toronto, experience if I attend a conference. Bickles emphasis is on prayer, holiness, and eschatology. The gifts flow out of the prayer room, tune in it is 24-7 going for 7-8 years straight no break. I have seen many a meeting there, sorry you would be dissappointed at the amount of prophecy, and manifestations of the gifts. Bickel sounds like a Stott, or an evangelical. He did a prophetic seminar at the Vineyard in So Cal, they wanted him to give an impartation, and he conceded that he does not flow in the gift but teaches on it.
You would be better served criticizing another point, in Love.