Inviting Others to Pray
I recently attended the first night of onething Minneapolis with Drew (Sign of Jonah) in Woodbury, MN. On the way home (we left in the midst of the typically contrived Charismatic/Pentecostal come-to-Jesus, tear-fest finale), Drew mentioned something he had recently heard or read about prayer. I don’t recall his exact words, but it was something like this:
“We don’t invite others to pray for a situation because we believe God is manipulated by numbers. We invite others to pray so that God’s glory is maximized when the prayer is answered.”
In other words, the praise given to God for answered prayer is increased by inviting others to pray.
I’ve been ruminating on this ever since that evening. Over the past few years, I have hesitated to invite others to pray for me (outside of family members and close friends). I believe this hesitation has been a reaction to a mode or conception of prayer that I have only relatively recently begun to recognize. Over the last few years, I have witnessed in my personal life and elsewhere professing believers scurrying to get enough people, or the right kind of people (”prayer warriors” or, better yet, “intercessory missionaries“), to pray for a situation in order to, in my view, manipulate God into “answering” the prayer request.
Keith Gibson at Sign of Jonah wrote on this topic via his comments on Dutch Sheets’ Intercessory Prayer (available at the IHOP bookstore here). Sheets advances a theology of prayer that is popular in many Charismatic/Pentecostal circles regarding the golden bowls of incense/prayer of Revelation 5:8:
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
The idea is that God cannot “answer” a particular request until these heavenly bowls have been adequately filled with prayers. Essentially, God is reduced to some kind of cosmic genie we need to rub just the right way in order to have Him grant our wishes. (Hmm… Maybe Christina Aguilera’s “Genie in a Bottle” could be tweaked into a charismatic worship ditty? Ah, that’s a cheap shot. There are plenty of non-charismatic evangelical believers who also seem to approach prayer in this way.)
I’ve been placing the word “answer” in parentheses, because I think it is the wrong word in this context. Approaching prayer from the bowl-half-empty perspective, the aim is not for God to answer prayer, but for Him to yield to our preferences and desires. God always answers prayer. He has sovereignly elected to move in accordance with the prayers of His people. However, His answers to our prayers are often not our preferences. Yet, they are always good. Romans 8:28:
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
As blasphemous and God-belittling as the above approach to prayer is; my reaction to it was also wrong. It was wrong of me to withhold prayer requests from the broader body of Christ. I have missed opportunities to spread the fame of our God through His answers to my prayers.
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Now playing: Animal Collective – Peacebone
via FoxyTunes
Jim,
While I totally understand where you are coming from, I have to put in my 2 cents.
When it came to my not wanting to put out prayer requests to others in my former church, it was because of the sheer nosiness of it all.
If I asked for an unspoken request to be prayed for, it was like it was beaten out of me to ‘help them pray better’, when really all it was, was a way to gossip about you behind your back or to just be nosy.
But I have definately been there. wanting the “right” people pray for me or my family… *siiiigh* I didnt know the Harp and Bowl model existed until I started out of the movement, but the way it is described by you was certainly the way I saw things, as did the people I prayed with.
Now, I have trouble coming away from just keeping prayers to close friends/family– I dont actually want my church to know everything Im dealing with. And I dont necessarily think its wrong to keep others out of your business if you feel you need to.
But sure, there are other times when you REALLY need the prayers of a thousand saints.
So I think there is probably a fine line.— not with the harp and bowl stuff, because I think thats trash– but with whether or not you should have a drove of people around you to pray.
Its definately Ok to pray and then give your report of what God did, even if those people around you did not pray for you.
Berean,
I didn’t mean to imply that a believer should feel compelled to expose all of his/her most intimate concerns to every other believer he/she comes into contact with. I think all of us draw lines in that regard. I merely meant to confess that I had been keeping others out of my prayer requests for illegitimate reasons.
(I also struggle with the prayer/gossip issue. I know that I have shared information about another believer in the past under the guise of “you-should-pray-for-so-and-so”, when my heart was really just wanting to gossip.)
God Bless
God answering prayers and the bowls in heaven are two completely different things. God keeps our tears in a bottle. God desires to answer our prayers even before we pray for them. The Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groaning that cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26). We aren’t trying to persuade God, we are agreeing with his heart.
So, with that in mind, we aren’t trying to control God for nothing. He is a Judge and King, to think that is foolishness. He keeps our prayers in Bowls in heaven. It’s not a measuring instrument, it’s a holding cell for later use. It’s a recording.
Tim,
Thanks for commenting. I’m a little slow on the up-take. Could you expound a bit on your last comment? I’m not sure I understand where you’re going.
Thanks & God Bless
It’s not just saying if you pray about it enough you’ll get it. It’s like writing them down. Bowls in Heaven are mentioned one other time in the Book of Revelation and that’s the Bowls of God’s wrath. Mike Bickle says that’s the same as the Prayers of the Saints. I’m not sure about that I haven’t studied enough on it but I do trust Dave Sliker’s stuff on the End Times.
and God bless you more my brother
Ah, I understand a bit better now Jim
I think the prayer/gossip issue is the single most huge thing that keeps me tight lipped around the majority.
I think its a place where I need some healing, to be honest, and I never really thought of that until now.
“Recently, I believe the Lord showed me what sometimes happens when we come to Him with a need, asking Him to accomplish what He says in His Word. In answer to our requests, He sends His angels to get our bowls of prayer to mix with the fire of the altar. But there isn’t enough in our bowls to meet the need! We might blame God or think it’s not His will or that His Word must not really mean what it says. The reality of it is that sometimes He cannot do what we’ve asked because we have not given Him enough power in our prayer times to get it done. He has poured out all there was to pour and it wasn’t enough! It’s not just a faith issue, but also a power issue.”
- Dutch Sheets, Intercessory Prayer
Tim,
Would you agree with Mr. Sheets’ above comments?
Nope. Thought you would appreciate that answer.
Fred,
Are you aware that this book is available for purchase at the IHOP bookstore?
What? No! Burn it!
Sorry, make that a “yep”. I like Dutch a ton. Just think that he didn’t think that one through at all, and don’t agree one bit.
I also don’t agree with Piper’s thoughts on Calvinism. While we’re at it, I don’t much agree with Pawson’s viewpoint on the book of Revelation. Should I make sure that the bookstore censers them as well?
Sigh…
Well, if Dutch is your guy, then we’re probably further apart then I would have guessed. (Carrot cake, anyone…?)
I think the fact that one of IHOP’s big deals is Harp & Bowl, and that Dutch speaks directly to this in Intercessory Prayer and that the book is sold and promoted at IHOP’s bookstore (not a large bookstore, BTW – they offer books by a relatively small sampling of authors) is a problem.
I don’t mean that Dutch is my guy theologically. I meant that as a human being, I like him a ton. And I appreciate why you think that it is a problem for IHOP to carry his books. They have obviously shattered many lives.
My wife and I were discussing this the other day. Why ask for prayer – and why pray, for that matter – when we already know that God is in control?
I like the way you put it in the post. God is glorified when we are worshiping Him, and we are worshiping Him when we are lifting up our voices, seeking His blessing on our lives.
It’s still a tough thing to practice. Thanks for the thoughts on the topic.
I don’t mean that Dutch is my guy theologically. I meant that as a human being, I like him a ton. And I appreciate why you think that it is a problem for IHOP to carry his books. They have obviously shattered many lives.
Fred what do you mean by this (bolded line) or was this a small sarcastic post?
Oh, sarcastic for sure. Maybe more “dry” than sarcastic, but I appreciate the adjective denoting that fact you placed in your question.
Now, if there are testimonies of many shattered lives from the reading of these works, then I’ll have quite a bit of egg on my face, won’t I? I would be the first to repent and lead the charge to expunge the books from the nearest bookstore. That’s the risk one takes when employing sarcasm, I would suppose.
Jim, MBaker and Fred,
I have been almost mesmerized by the discussions you all have been having especially on the SOJ site. Quite an excellent debate on the topic of Bridal Paradigm from each of you.
I know and have spoken to MBaker personally and I have communicated with Jim via e-mail but Fred I of course don’t know much about you. You seem to be quite educated about things in the scripture. You have peaked my interest in knowing more about you.
How long have you been a Christian? What is your testamony? Who are you? What is your backround? Are you on staff at IHOP or the school? Are you a Pastor?
I am 55, been a worship leader for almost all of my 35 years as a Christian (accepted Christ as my savior when I was 16). Was spirit filled in my mid 20’s and have seen God do some pretty awesome things through the power of the Holy Spirit. Recieved Christ in the Baptist Church, married into the Episcopal Church, moved to Sacramento, Ca. and became Open Bible, then AG, now live in the Pacific Northwest and am in 4Square.
Jesus IS my all in all. I worship Him with all of my heart and love to sing songs of praise exalting Him and lifting His name up.
This might not be the place for this but I am genuinly interested in knowing who you are.
Hello IBIJ,
I was wondering (if you are willling) could you email me and tell me alittle more about how you became a calvinist? I don’t know if you remember discussing with me on SOJ bulletin board but I am really interested in your journey from arminianism to calvinism. Jim can give you my email if that’s ok.
Ok with me Jim
Mary
use this…It’s new and I will specifically use it for anyone who wants to communicate with me on a one to one basis.
sojfan@yahoo.com
yes i believe that… you can’t expect a million dollar answer from God with a ten cent prayer… God desires partnership on this earth with us and if we don’t do our part then God is limited… Prayer is effort… and time spent in prayer is important… God desires partnership with his bride in these last days
God will not do our part and we cannot do his part.
Tim,
It seems then that the answer to the old question, “Does prayer change us or God?” has been definitively answered by folks like you and Dutch: God.
As Martin Luther said, “Your God is too small.”
I pray that you will reconsider your position here. I think you almost completely misunderstand what prayer is. I would plead with you to read the following articles on prayer and God’s sovereignty. If you allow these Biblical truths to penetrate you heart and mind, it will change your life.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/35_Prayer/1475_The_Sovereignty_of_God_and_Prayer/
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/35_Prayer/275_What_Do_Answers_to_Prayer_Depend_On/
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/35_Prayer/278_What_Do_Answers_to_Prayer_Depend_On/
God Bless
Our prayers don’t change God. God puts prayers in our hearts to change us. He gives us the desire to pray in the first place. I’m not your typical Armenian i do believe in Predestination but I also believe in free will. But It’s also the principle of partnership. He won’t do anything without prayer. Have you ever read E.M. Bounds?
“He won’t do anything without prayer.”
Really?! Are you sure about this? My, God is limited then isn’t he?
Tim,
I have an E.M. Bounds book on prayer (I can’t recall the title), but haven’t read it for quite some time.
“Our prayers don’t change God. God puts prayers in our hearts to change us. He gives us the desire to pray in the first place.”
Agreed! However, Dutch says, “…sometimes He cannot do what we’ve asked because we have not given Him enough power in our prayer times to get it done. He has poured out all there was to pour and it wasn’t enough!”
God sovereignly does all that He pleases, and He has chosen to do so through the prayers of His people. I think we agree there. What Dutch is saying, that sometimes God’s will is thwarted because we haven’t given Him enough juice, however, is simply wrong.
Additionally, when Dutch refers to believers “asking Him to accomplish what He says in His Word”, I think he is including things like healing, prosperity, etc. It is not always God’s will to heal. It is not always God’s will that we prosper. Therefore, unanswered prayer is not a result of insufficient incense, but a disclosing of the reality that often His ways are not our ways.
God Bless
unanswered prayer is not a result of insufficient incense, but a disclosing of the reality that often His ways are not our ways.
Prayer is also unanswered because of sin in our lives. There is a very good book written by Dr. John A. Lavender (with the Lord now) called “Why Prayers are Unanswered . This is one of many reasons He states prayers don’t get answered. Might find it interesting. I am reading it again just now. It’s been well over 30 years since I read it last.
( http://www.winsome.org/downloads/Why%20Prayers%20Are%20Unanswered.pdf )
if God does what he pleases regardless of input, then why pray or intercede for anything or anybody?… he’s going to do it anyway…. it’s about a bride that’s a partner with God…
Because God has foreordained all that will come to pass; and He will do these things in response to the prayers of His people. The prayers are part of His foreordination.
Isn’t that one reason we must pray according to His will? HIS WILL!!! Not what we think or command Him to do.
so intercession is basically pointless. that’s what you’re saying?
Jim,
(this my have gotten answered in all the comments above, I didn’t have time to read them all, this is a direct response to the post you wrote.)
I’m curious, where are the biblical references in your outlook on prayer? While I find Dutch’s premise faulty like you. There is at least Biblical presidence for petitioning God to do something. Genesis 18:23-33 When Abraham pleads over and over for God to turn from wiping away Sodom and Gomorrah, and God spare then Lot and his wife. Joel 2:13-14 Joel prophesies to Israel to rend their heart and fast and pray, and ‘who knows, maybe he’ll turn and leave a blessing behind instead’. Those are the 2 examples that come to mind in the Word right away. I know I have read plenty others as well.
This doesn’t take away God’s sovereignty, “God is in the Heaven’s and whatever He pleases He does.” (Psalms 115:3) But petitioning a king for change doesn’t make him a genie in a bottle.
Dutch (though again i have some qualms with) isn’t Saying God can’t act until the prayers of the saints fill the bowls, (again I think the “genie in a bottle quip was a bit uncalled for) God is waiting for the prayers of the saints on his own as it’s apart of his sovereign plan, as he wants partnership with what he is doing. We get this picture from the book of Revelation. Specifically Revelation 8:3-5. Scholarship throughout the years outside of what you call the “charismatic-pentecostal camps” have drawn this same conclusion from Revelation.
Though I don’t think that this is always the case. I don’t think God is always waiting for us to pray to act, because He surely is sovereign. But Scripture points to situations where God does indeed wait first for his saints to pray. He waits for them to come to him. Or should I say He draws them unto him.
Also I will say that though you and I may not agree with Dutch please do not be disrespectful. Dutch is a good man, and a man diligently seeking God and the Word. This I know first hand.
Bless You Sir.
Zack,
I said, “God always answers prayer. He has sovereignly elected to move in accordance with the prayers of His people.”
I agree that God often, if, perhaps, not always, moves in accordance with the prayers of His saints. My problem with Sheets approach is his castrating of God’s power and sovereignty. God is never impeded from acting because the bowls aren’t full enough. God is sovereign over prayer also, and will move in accordance with one weak prayer from one weak saint.
Additionally, I think Rev. 8:3-5 is, like many other texts (cough – Song of Songs – cough), made to “walk on all fours” here.
“…and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.”
There’s been a whole lot of (bad) theology derived from these few verses. Does God work in accord with the prayers of His people? Yes. To go beyond this and speculate on the heavenly mechanics of God’s answering prayer, fixating on the bowls/censers as divine measuring cups, is inappropriate.
As far as Mr. Sheets goes… I have little respect for the man as a teacher, prophet, apostle… or whatever he calls himself. I don’t doubt that he is a sincerely swell guy, great friend, husband, father, etc. However, his “prophecies” (not to mention his books) are too often laughably and painfully wrong (and blasphemous) for me to take him seriously.
…This is one of my chief problems with IHOP, Zack. There seem to be some really bright folks involved, like you (and people like Sam Storms). Yet, there is a simultaneous embracing of some… with all due respect, goofballs, like Sheets, Joyner, Cain, Jones, etc.
God Bless
Zack,
Again we have the whiff of dominionism in Sheets interpretation of the Revelation 8:3-5 verses. Yes, we are promised by Christ Himself that whatever we ask in His name will be granted, but according to His will not ours. Very critical point to remember. It has nothing to do with the quantity of the prayers, but upon the exquisite timing and the purposes God Himself has in mind both individually and corporately.
Yes, God has made exceptions but only to prove that it is always His desire that we come to Him in genuine humility for His mercy, even at the last minute. Effective prayers of the righteous man are not about somehow coming up with a magic prayer formula that will influence God to move our way, but about fully trusting that His answers will always be better than our requests.
We are simply told to ask in accordance with his will. We have been given no control as to the how or the when of it. So, to think we can somehow change God’s predetermined plan by filling His prayer bowl to overflowing is foolish thinking in the first place. God may certainly be pleased with our response, but He will not be controlled by it.
Tim Brownlee,
No intercession is not pointless. We have just been taught the wrong way to go about it . We are to intercede for folks who are too weak, too young, to ill, or too lost or confused to pray for themselves. It is not about us, and that is the whole point of it.
Tim B,
We are also told to intercede for kings and those in authority over us. Some people ask why if God put them there in the first place, which scripture tells us He did. The only answer is: Even when we don’t understand why God asks us to pray for certain things, we do it simply because our Father says so. There are so many answers we’ll never have here on earth, but someday in heaven God will reveal the reason to us, when we know as we are fully known. Until then, as the old hymn says we’ll have to “just trust and obey, for there’s no other way” Our human egos just really rail against that concept however, and I think that is at the heart of a lot of these man made formulas for “successfully” practicing Christianity .
@ Jim
“To go beyond this and speculate on the heavenly mechanics of God’s answering prayer, fixating on the bowls/censers as divine measuring cups, is inappropriate.”
I agree completely. And I think Revelation 8 is an example of a situation where God acted in this manner.
However only to do what MBAKER said:
“only to prove that it is always His desire that we come to Him in genuine humility for His mercy, even at the last minute.”
God is not always waiting for bowls of incense to be filled before he can do anything. But there are times when he is, but even then He is not at the mercy of the people, His plan is for them to come to him. then acting. Us coming to him is simply part of that plan.
I personally like the way Bickle defines intersession. he says: “Intersession is simply telling God what he tells us to tell him…Intersession is agreeing with God’s plan”
As for as IHOP’s friends that have bad theology. Phil. 1:8. Eat the meat and spit out the bones.
Zackh,
I don’t believe you can excuse “bad theology”, which is a nicer name for false doctrine, under the exegesis of Phillipians 1:8, or Philemon 1:8 both of which have nothing to do with “eating the meat and spitting out the bones” of any teaching we receive. Please show us more specific scriptural backup for that statement, if indeed you believe that’s going to somehow allow false teaching to get by God unchallenged.
Let’s take for example what Christ’s body represents. When we take the bread of communion, which is symbolic of Christ’s body we are not told to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” . We are accepting what Christ did on the cross unequivocally. As a church, our foundation was laid by Him as the Rock, and he is also the Head. However, then to reject some of the teachings of the Bible on the basis of a casual remark, or to interpret them in a way which changes their meaning entirely, is in actuality accepting eternal life on the one hand and practicing a brand of human relativism on the other. Sounds good and feels good to our human egos, but in Christ’s eyes we cannot have our cake and eat it too.
Jesus got furious at the Pharisees for adding so many of their traditions to the word of God that it’s original meaning became lost to the people they were supposed to be teaching it too. This is one of the great dangers I see with IHOP’s casual attitude of “eat the meat and spit out the bones”. How we tell truth from error if we aren’t getting unadulterated truth in the first place?
Paul constantly warned about that “eat the meat and spit out the bones” attitude in all the churches he established. Every epistle he wrote contains admonitions against humanly mixing in something different when it comes to what God says. So, to casually dismiss all the instructions on how we are to tell the difference between truth and error is to make Eve’s fatal mistake all over again. She tried to get God to go along with her choice to taste the mixture of good and evil, and He flatly refused.
Some of us who post here also mistakenly believed at one time that you could safely “eat the meat and spit out the bones” and found out the hard way that we couldn’t do that without putting our spiritual welfare in jeopardy. When the Holy Spirit brought us to that realization, we had to learn the truth of God all over again. This is exactly why we try to warn others of the dangers of accepting adulterated doctrine.
mbaker -you are absolutely correct that some of us had to find out the hard way and the Holy Spirit had to bring us to that realization. I feel like I am in kindergarten and am truly learning the Truth of God all over again. JimB – what are your thoughts on those who choose to pray over you what THEY think you need?
Zack,
“God is not always waiting for bowls of incense to be filled before he can do anything. But there are times when he is…”
Says who? Rev. 8:5 says nothing of God’s waiting for anything. I won’t pretend to be an expert on Revelation, because I am not. However, it seems to me all John is saying here is that Christ’s Second Coming and Final Judgment will occur according to the sovereign will of God and in response to the prayers of His people (from the beginning, not just the prayers of some end-times enclave of super-intercessors). The Spirit and the Bride have been saying “come” for about 2000 years now. And Christ will come in response to these prayers, but in the Father’s own time.
There is nothing in scripture that makes the Second Coming/Final Judgment explicitly contingent on prayer (let alone a particular model or intensity of it). Scripture does, however, make the Second Coming contingent on a human action:
Mat 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Rom 11:25 – Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Act 1:6-8 – So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
If we are interested in hastening the end, we would be much more interested in seeing the Great Commission fulfilled “to the end of the earth” and not holed up in our prayer rooms 24/7 (with high speed internet…).
With all due respect (I mean that), I believe IHOP and the 24/7 prayer movement is a colossal distraction from what Christians should really be about. “Pray without ceasing” is not a command to some kind of monasticism. Christians have been praying without ceasing since the beginning, and without 24/7 houses of prayer.
I don’t mean to pit prayer vs. mission. Christians should be doing both. We should be evangelizing the world prayerfully. However, I just don’t see IHOP’s focus as biblical. And we all know this is not just about prayer, so don’t respond with, “What’s wrong with prayer?” 24/7 prayer is part of a (in my opinion, aberrant) spiritual warfare model that sees it “changing the spiritual atmosphere” and setting the stage for cancer-free Cities of Refuge. (See post on Jennifer Roberts and onething.)
I also don’t mean to imply that IHOP engages in zero evangelism. I’m speaking about the philosophical/theological focus. A focus which I believe is misplaced.
God Bless
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. (ESV)
I am still trying to figure out how an allegory of the magnitude that comes from IHOP comes out from this verse. I mean this verse simply states that the angel was given much incense to burn at the alter and the smoke (along with the aroma from that incense) rose along with all the prayers of the saints, and what I gather from this verse is that the prayers are part of the offering given to God.
Interesting thought came to my mind, the prayers may not smell so sweet or smell good at all without the incense? Or, the mixture of the aroma of prayers from the saints (all, past and present) and incense is just a great mixture that is acceptable to God?
Also look at the devastation that follows after the offering is made. Hmmm… very interesting.
das,
I applaud you in your effort to seek God’s truth. I think all of us who have been through this understand the dangers of following false teachers now, and want to comfort others as well as warn them. I am so glad God promises to work everything to His own good purpose for those who love Him, and are called by Him.
I know you addressed your question to Jim B. about having others pray for you what they think should be prayed, but I’d just like to share a few thoughts on that particular issue as I’ve seen it done so much in my years in prayer ministry.
First, we have to be careful who we ask to pray. It should be someone who sees the reality of our situation as well as hears it from our own mouths, and will pray honestly but in a confidential and Godly way. I have never believed, however, in folks trumpeting these things to the rooftops to by telling others what we have shared with them in confidence. I believe some folks have a secret need to see others suffer and are almost gleeful when they see someone that maybe they don’t like so well going through hardships of some kind. If they have this type personality even as Christians, they seem to love to spread the news it around to all they know under the guise of a prayer request . I avoid sharing prayer requests with folks like that because of their chronic propensity to gossip or inability to keep Godly confidences.
Sometimes we are so emotionally caught up in a situation we don’t know what to pray, and and we turn to our closest friends, thinking they’ll understand. Again, they don’t always see things the way we want them to. Sometimes they pray for us giving their own advice with God’s name on it to make it more acceptable. I have seen folks do this disguised as a “word” from God as well and perhaps you have too. So, I think it is best when we have an emotional or spiritual issue to seek out an objective person who is not connected emotionally to the situation and is trained to deal with those things through application of the word of God. That could be a clergyman or a trained Christian counselor.
But whichever way we decde to go, unless someone publically requests us to pray for them, such as in front of the church, or to pass their request along along a prayer chain, we should pray for them privately, and keep any information they give us that way.
mbaker – I agree wholeheartedly. I also have found myself in the situation of joining others for prayer and then had “prayer turned on me so to speak” as in that my eyes would be opened to truth (of the Ihop kind) or that I would have things removed from me that I don’t agree with. How on earth do you remove yourself from that kind of prayer in the middle of the situation? As much as I would like to stand there and say I rebuke that or I don’t accept that I am uncomfortable to say the least. Prayer in and of itself is really not about us, is it?
THE WEAPON OF PRAYER
by E. M. Bounds
I. PRAYER ESSENTIAL TO GOD
“Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. 14th verse: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.”-Isa_58:9
IT must never be forgotten that Almighty God rules this world. He is not an absentee God. His band is ever on the throttle of human affairs. He is everywhere present in the concerns of time. “His eyes behold, his eyelids try the children of men.” He rules the world just as He rules the Church by prayer. This lesson needs to be emphasized, iterated and reiterated in the ears of men of modern times and brought to bear with cumulative force on the consciences of this generation whose eyes have no vision for the eternal things, whose ears are deaf toward God.
Nothing is more important to God than prayer in dealing with mankind. But it is likewise all-important to man to pray. Failure to pray is failure along the whole line of life. It is failure of duty, service, and spiritual progress. God must help man by prayer. He who does not pray, therefore, robs himself of God’s help and places God where He cannot help man. Man must pray to God if love for God is to exist. Faith and hope, and patience and all the strong, beautiful, vital forces of piety are withered and dead in a prayerless life. The life of the individual believer, his personal salvation, and personal Christian graces have their being, bloom and fruitage in prayer.
All this and much more can be said as to the necessity of prayer to the being, and culture of piety in the individual. But prayer has a larger sphere, a more obligated duty, a loftier inspiration. Prayer concerns God, whose purposes and plans are conditioned on prayer. His will and His glory are bound up in praying. The days of God’s splendour and renown have always been the great days of prayer.
I have always loved the above from EM Bounds. (Gotta love E-sword.)
Zackh – your definition of Intercession was I believe “simply telling God what he tells us to tell him”. (Based on Mike Bickle’s words right?)
The ISBE states: Intercession is based upon the natural tendency of the heart filled by love and a deep sympathetic sense of relation to others.
In other words our love for one another in Christ brings us to the place of prayer.
So by your definition we “tell” God what he wants to hear not what our hearts (because we are of Him) become filled with compassion for. Am I understanding you correctly? So we are to pacify God? How is that going to change the spiritual atmosphere anywhere even if it is 24/7? Which I agree with JimB on – Christians have been praying without ceasing from the beginning. I really in all sincerity would like to know how “telling God what he tells us to tell him” is going to change any spiritual atmosphere. As i posted a minute ago out of EM Bounds – He rules the world just as He rules the Church by prayer.
Das,
I have an EM Bounds book on prayer that I have been meaning to read. Thanks for the quote.
This is what Zack said (paraphrasing Bickle):
“Intersession is simply telling God what he tells us to tell him…Intersession is agreeing with God’s plan”
When I read that, I assumed Zack was referring to praying scripture (I think they do a lot of that at IHOP). Now that I read your comment and re-read Zack’s, I’m not sure. Zack, do you simply mean praying scripture, or are you also referring to personal revelation – “God is telling me (via personal revelation) to pray for…”? I do have a problem with the latter, because of the inherent spiritual manipulation involved. (How do you answer someone who tells you that God told them to tell you…?)
God Bless
“(How do you answer someone who tells you that God told them to tell you…?)”
I learned to do that by telling them that God abides by His word. In His word he says that if we have anything against a brother we are to go that brother first. Now why would God instruct us to do such such a thing, and then turn around and go to someone else when He has something personal to say to us?
JimB – that is why I asked in all sincerity what Zack h meant. I guess it depends on how you break that whole thing down. Intercession is simply telling God – ok that means praying right? ? ? What he tells us to tell him – that part is my question. So if in Ihopese (if I may) the “burden to pray for abortion” is present – that is prayed from scripture or from personal revelation like you stated. ????? Don’t get me wrong – I pray against abortion. It touched the life of one of my daughters.
I don’t discount the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit when it comes to giving us insight as to what to pray for. Where I have a problem is that nine times out of ten when someone tells us “God told me to tell you…” it’s them thinking they have the answer to our problem and putting God’s name on it. I think that’s pretty dangerous stuff, but it is rampant in the charismatic church since they have become so obsessed with prophecy.
By their very nature, prophetic ministries are under pressure to give “words” to people to get their continued support. Now if someone I know well is a person of great integrity in the Lord, and not prone to such questionable practices, then I would sit up and listen. But sadly, I can’t think of one thing that was ever said over me prophetically in prayer that ever came to pass.
We “tell” God in prayer what the problem is and what we want the remedy to be. God, who sees the entire picture answers in accordance with what He thinks will be best for us, or others. You have probably heard that old expression, ” I prayed for patience and God gave me children” God always answers in a way which will eventually benefit us, by allowing circumstances in our lives which shape our character, or make us to more thoughtful, discerning and disciplined in our lives and our choices. I have never
I don’t discount the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit when it comes to giving us insight as to what to pray for. Where I have a problem is that nine times out of ten when someone tells us “God told me to tell you…” it’s them thinking they have the answer to our problem and putting God’s name on it. I think that’s pretty dangerous stuff, but it is rampant in the charismatic church since they have become so obsessed with prophecy.
By their very nature, prophetic ministries are under pressure to give “words” to people to get their continued support. Now if someone I know well is a person of great integrity in the Lord, and not prone to such questionable practices, then I would sit up and listen. But sadly, I can’t think of one thing that was ever said over me prophetically in prayer that ever came to pass.
We “tell” God in prayer what the problem is and what we want the remedy to be. God, who sees the entire picture answers in accordance with what He thinks will be best for us, or others. You have probably heard that old expression, ” I prayed for patience and God gave me children” God always answers in a way which will eventually benefit us, by allowing circumstances in our lives which shape our character, or make us to more thoughtful, discerning and disciplined in our lives and our choices. I have never
continued….I have never seen IHOP’s methods work any better than the simplest of petitions from a sincere heart of humility from someone who is completely unskilled in prayer. I believe that when we start using man- made formulas, or become too dependent on others to pray for us, we miss the whole idea of prayer – God’s awesome gift which allows us to be able to communicate directly with Him in the first place.
continued….I have never seen IHOP’s methods work any better than the simplest of petitions from a sincere heart of humility from someone who is completely unskilled in prayer. I believe that when we start using man- made formulas, or become too dependent on others to pray for us, we miss the whole idea of prayer – God’s awesome gift which allows us to be able to communicate directly with Him in the first place.
JimB.
I also want to say that I’m not in a position to speak on behalf of IHOP. I can only speak as one who has been heavily involved over the last 6 years.
First off I’d like to say a greatly appreciate this discussion. Often when i chat with people about IHOP on the net, it tends to be combative. thanks for not being so.
Now I think I’m being slightly misunderstood, and what I’m saying is being viewed through a prejudice lens (against IHOP) Here is why. The “Harp and Bowl” metaphor is just a one instance. (and I’m definatly not referring to it as Dutch does so we are clear. I don’t fully agree with the way he states it) You quoted me saying: “God is not always waiting for bowls of incense to be filled before he can do anything. But there are times when he is” “Times when he is” meaning In scripture we see times when He is wanting for a response from the hearts of men before he reacts.
Which he does out of his mercy.
In the book of Joel we see a wicked army being raised up, God, through the prophet Joel declares to Israel to rend their hearts, to shut down all the various aspects of life for a time and give them gives to crying out before the Lord. This is because the Lord put a hold on his judgment so that the people had a chance to respond.
2 Chronicles 7, (admitably over used in some circles) “If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray….then…I will hear from heaven forgive their sin, and heal their land.”
Hosea 11. God is aching over Israel. Wishing to act however He says his ways are different. He will instead draw Israel to him in a roar. and they will return trembling.
God takes Israel through the Desert for with Moses for 40 years waiting for them. Withholding the promised land, drawing them unto him. He comes in signs and wonders, still they reject, and still God chooses to wait.
My point is there are many more times in scripture where God is waiting for his people to respond before He acts. This is not, his people “pacifying God” (as das stated) The idea of “pacifying” the all sovereign God whom I deeply love, makes me feel a little queasy inside. God waits as apart of his plan, not as a part of him waiting to see what happens. That would an open theistic way of thinking that is not biblical or helpful.
Rev. 8 is where Jesus (We know it’s Jesus because of Rev 5, Worthy is the lamb etc.) begins the second judgment series during the tribulation. We see those same bowls of incense defined as the prayers of the saints in Rev. 5:8. We get a glimpse into what the heavenly throne room looks like. In it we see the prayers of the saints burning before the throne. Rev. 8 takes us back to that scene, and shows us that there is a pause before the 7 trumpets (7 different judgments) are blown. After the pause the angels let the prayers of the saints’ rise before they act. God chooses to wait as the number of saints praying grows before he acts. This is during the tribulation, a time yet to come. Sure I think our prayers are rising before the Lord even now.
Are they filling bowls for the 2nd judgment series? Don’t know. It’s not scripturally clear. How ever we can only see that in this instance Jesus is pausing for them before he acts.
As to the great commission and people sitting in a room versus evangelizing. I will remind you (no matter how cheesy the TV station is at times) we are online and live on God TV leading literally millions (I’ve seen the stats) in prayer around the world at any given. 4 months ago we lead 6,000 at a conference in South Korea in prayer and the Word via satellite. Hundreds got saved and plugged into local churches. 2 months ago it was the same thing in Fiji, hundreds where saved. Reports fly in on a consistent basis with testimonies of how people’s lives are being changed, marriages restored, kids coming off drugs, because they are joining us in prayer.
I personally have come from an inner city background, and work with kids coming straight out of gangs, and off drugs here in the inner city. They are changing their lives around because the have a place where they can come anytime day or night talk to the living God, and receive counsel and instruction in the word. Those who choose to be on staff are choose to do at least 50 hours a week. 24 hours in the prayer room, and 24 hours in service. (the other 2 hours are to be spent raising support)
Jim all of the scriptures you quoted were right on. The gospel must go forth.
However full time intercessors are also in the heart of God, if you say no, then I ask; Why the Levites? Why throughout the Old Testament was one of God’s primary objectives to set up a temple? He free them from Babylon of the sole purpose of establishing a temple, a house of prayer. I believe there is enough scriptural backing in that alone to show God cares about certain people setting aside their live for prayer. To quote Mike, He says that “only maybe 2% of the body of Christ are called to be fulltime intercessors.” I know he is not saying all of Christendom is meant for it, nor should they all be doing it. IHOP is simply a place where those who are can come and pray. Which last I checked living a life in prayer and godliness has never put anyone in danger of losing their salvation as far as scripture and church history states.
I hope I’m being helpful. I do not wish to debate this issue much longer. But I wanted to at least maybe help clear some stuff up. I’ve been so surprised by the reactions I see online over the years because they paint a picture of IHOP I’ve never scene, and again it’s not like I’m a bystander here. I’ve been behind the scenes enough to know if any of it was true.
Bless you guys, I appreciate your questions, it sharpens me.
oh and in response to mbaker’s comment above real quick as it was posted with mine simultaneously. I and all off us here at IHOP would agree with you that we are unskilled in prayer. We aren’t saying we are skilled. Just trying to do the best we can in the grace of God, and the revelatory work of the holy spirit.
Jim,
Excuse the “hiccup” where both my posts above got posted twice. Got one of those 500 error messages that there was a problem in the WordPress system, and it said to refresh the page, which apparently sent them twice. Hopefully this one will only post once.
Zackh,
I never said IHOP was unskilled in prayer, so I presume you are being sarcastic, which is okay if that’s how you want to take it. My point is that God has given us all the wonderful gift to go to Him directly through prayer, and we shouldn’t think that we need to be “professional” intercessors to do it, or have to pray 24-7 to receive answers. Since God isn’t hard of hearing, I think He gets the idea the first time.
oops! sorry I was trying to read two things at once. I’m a one track minded kind of thinker, i was reading your comment and processing another from someone talking to me and merged the two in my mind.
I appoligize for that. Please forgive me,
definitely wasn’t trying to be sarcastic. sarcasm in this discussion would be helpful, sorry for the mix up!
I will say that IHOP is not saying we need professional intercessors. I agree with your comment completely. We are just a company of people choosing to do it 24/7 not mandating anyone to do it.
in fact that has been a frustrating thing I’ve encountered when travel to different churches. There will be a person there waiting for a member of IHOP to walk in so they can bring me before there church and say, “listen to him, he’s going to tell you why we need ‘harp and bowl’ prayer here.” When maybe all they really need is some encouragement to stay the course in prayer before the Lord, and in walking out their salvation.
The “harp and Bowl” method of worship music and prayer is simply a model to help keep 24/7 prayer from being boring. Mike has said this on many occasions. If you are going to sit in a room and pray for 6 hours in silence, it’s going to be really hard to sustain it for a long time. All it’s for is to help keep people “engaged” in prayer. Sing a worship song, pray a little, sing the word a little, etc. It’s not a method we teach for churches or people to implement. Cause it’s only helpful if you are trying to sustain a 24/7 prayer meeting for 10-20 years.
I meant both. They way you answer the “God told me to do this” stuff is take it back to see if what they say God told them lines up with what his word says.
I deal with that alot actually, and people may want to grab the mic and say the wants to me to pray for abortion right now! In which case I answer them according to I Cor. 14. If you have a prophecy or a word, or a burden, all things must be done in order. Now did God really burden them to pray for abortion right then? I’m not able to judge, but if things are done in order, as Paul outline in Corinthians, then we can know how to handle it.
Zackh.
But don’t you agree that a lot of that grabbing the mike and saying that God wants that person to pray for abortion right now could actually be a grab for attention, or that person wanting recognition from their peers for how devoted a Christian or prayer warrior they are?
I think so often of Christ telling us not to be like the Pharisees and pray publicly but to go into our private prayer closets and pray to our heavenly Father in secret. I’ve often wondered why God said that, but have come to the conclusion that when a prayer is between us and Him then the focus is upon the prayer need, not upon us, or the fact that we may be so anxious for approval that we are actually praying against somethingn because we know it’s something our Christian peers will applaud us for.
One wonders what would happen if we came out with a national call for prayer against something that isn’t such a popular subject in the church – the false teaching currently poliferating in our midst.. Of course those of us who regularly post on this blog already know the answer to that – it would go over like a lead balloon. No one would think we’re doing a service to God by being willing to stick our necks out. No, we would be continue to be called legalistic, pharisees, jezebel spirits, yada, yada, yada. But does that matter when truth is at stake? Not really.
In the same vein, and I have seen hundreds of them in my time, real prayer warriors never call attention to themselves – they are entirely too busy quietly spending time with God in prayer- in their own private prayer closets where they neither receive recognition or reward.
I think that last sentence would have been better stated as :
“In the same vein, and I have seen hundreds of them in my time, real prayer warriors never seek credit or personal approval for themselves – they are entirely too busy quietly spending time with God in prayer- in their own private prayer closets where they neither receive recognition or reward.”
Zack,
You said, “However full time intercessors are also in the heart of God, if you say no, then I ask; Why the Levites? Why throughout the Old Testament was one of God’s primary objectives to set up a temple? He free them from Babylon of the sole purpose of establishing a temple, a house of prayer.”
I think this strikes near the heart of IHOP’s error. Who fulfills the OT requirements? Who has replaced it, including the Levites and the Temple/Tabernacle? Who sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us… 24/7?
Zack, do you really want to say that God requires (or even wants) a new Levite priesthood? This also applies to the restoration of the Tabernacle of David. Christ has already restored the Tabernacle in His Church. Read Hebrews. Christ fulfills all of this. He is our perfect prophet, priest and king. He intercedes for us 24/7.
Again I say this with all due respect – the whole IHOP premise is just plain wrong. It is not simply 24/7 prayer; it is 24/7 prayer in order to re-establish the Tabernacle of David, to restore the Levite/Melchizidek/etc. priesthood, in order to “change the atmosphere” and hasten the end.
And it is all driven, in my view, by personal divine revelation. Bickle’s vision/mission is driven by revelations received by himself, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, etc. (I’ve listened to the entire “Prophetic History of IHOP” series.) I recently visited David Sliker’s blog (”I’m an intercessory missionary, and it’s the end of the age”) where he states that his mission is driven by a personal revelation that Christ is coming and that His “hand is at the door”. (Sliker says elsewhere that he believes we are closer to “the end” than anyone realizes – discounting the protestation that he is merely saying what the Apostles said, that Christ is coming “soon”.) Sliker’s view on Revelation, and the rest of scripture is colored, like Bickle’s, by a need to legitimate personal revelation.
That’s how I see it, anyway.
God Bless & Happy Thanksgiving!
@ mbaker: I cant answer your question be because only God can discern the intentions of the heart. Though I agree it happens and as a leader one needs discernment and wisdom. However I’m not in a position before heaven to decide a person’s authenticity.
@ Jimb
God does not require or want a new Levitic priest hood. Correct Jesus is our Great high priest. I’m pointing out that God has it in his heart for people to set aside lives to pray. Yes I’ve read Hebrew quite throughly.
Do I believe in personal revelation? Absolutely, or is that not what the revelatory work of the spirit is? Can we not discern what the Lord’s plan is be him revealing to us in part by unction of the Holy Spirit? Is their not still the office of the prophet who can reveal things to men? (I don’t want to develop this though because most will assume when I say prophet I’m referring to the Patricia King, Shawn Bolz, Elijah list, etc. For the record, I disagree with most of their ideas of prophecy.)
I also believe it’s the end of age by personal revelation.
Again I’ve appreciated this conversation. And I appreciate all of your collective zeal to find the truth. and yes mr. baker it is important, thank you for your efforts. (I don’t speak with sarcasm)
Be truly blessed, and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well! (although I have some cynicism concerning the holiday as I’m of native american decent…but that is another topic for another day!)
God bless!
Jim
Sliker’s blog is great! He is a friend of mine. He is brilliant definitely a good find! I forgot to log out before commenting so as not to expose the link to my blog… but don’t worry about it. A little sharpening can’t hurt
Zack,
Thanks. I appreciate your willingness to engage in a fruitful discussion without anger or sarcasm.
You said:
“However I’m not in a position before heaven to decide a person’s authenticity.”
I realize you said that in context of people’s personal heart motives, but I am wondering this: How do you think the authenticity of a ministry is established or proven? I am speaking of IHOP now, where theology according to Mike Bickle, is based upon a vision he had in 1983 regarding the Song of Solomon. He calls it “foundational”. My question is: why with so much direct teaching from Christ, who is scripturally defined as the foundation of the church,as well as the head of it, is personal revelation so revered at IHOP that they must go back in time to establish their theology based upon somewhat obscure parts of the Bible? Since it was Christ who included us Gentiles in the gospel, why not use new testament teachings that do directly to us by establishing Christian doctrine? Why physically have to restore the tabernacle of David when, as Jim pointed out, that was completed by the coming and Christ, and all believers in Him live under that spiritual unction?
While I realize Mike teaches out of the NT as well, despite what IHOP’s mission statement says, it is usually to proof text His OT beliefs, not base his doctrine upon it.
Interesting thing by Piper concerning our conversation here a few months back:
In Piper’s message about Revelation 8 (the bowls being filled with the prayer of the saints) John says:
“Before the scroll is opened God wants to make clear to John and to his readers—us—that the unfolding of the end of the world will happen by the prayers of the saints.”
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1994/859_The_Prayers_of_the_Saints_and_the_End_of_the_World/
ironically this message is about to par with what we and I teach at IHOP. FYI
Zack,
If you look back at our conversation, I never disagreed with this notion.
However, prayer at Bethlehem (Piper’s church) is not “on par” with what is taught at IHOP. See my comment above:
http://blatzkrieg.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/inviting-others-to-pray/#comment-441
I think our differences were pretty well hashed out above. And, again, I repeatedly agreed with exactly what Piper says above. Frankly, to keep implying that all IHOP teaches on prayer is “that the unfolding of the end of the world will happen by the prayers of the saints” only confuses the issue. I can think of no Christian individual, ministry or denomination that doesn’t believe this. IHOP’s views on prayer go beyond this – you and I both know that. I don’t have time to flesh out how right now. Again, I think our conversation above did that.
God Bless